Author Topic: News worth our time  (Read 428430 times)

Online Gan_HOPE326

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4065 on: February 10, 2017, 09:38:59 AM »
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I guess the biggest thing in common is a hint of nationalism and I don't really see anything wrong with being selective of who you let in your country. If we all just had open borders, that would destroy the entire concept of "nations". Also, Saudi-Arabia, Turkey, and other well-off nations in the nearby regions should be the ones taking in the bulk of the middle-eastern refugees, not Europe. And the men should've stayed behind and defended their homes... at least until the women and children are safe, but usually it's the man of the family fleeing first.

About this I don't personally dread much the disappearance of nations. People who lived in city-states in the Middle Ages in Italy may have dreaded the disappearance of their nations. They disappeared, and the world keeps spinning. It's all very relative. All I care is about HOW political entities are ruled, not how many of them there are or in which shape. Though I can see a case for multiple entities vs. one in terms of displaying the qualities of different viewpoints/ways of doing things, and definitely even in an ideal united world you'd need to delegate power at a local level for a lot of things.

Saudi Arabia and Turkey are shitholes. Saudi Arabia especially shares very similar views of Islam with ISIS, and Turkey possibly helps ISIS, so why would people escaping from ISIS go there? Every time Saudi Arabia is brought up my objection is: it's an awful place if you're not some wealthy oil baron, an absolute theocratic monarchy, a country straight out of the Middle Ages, second only to North Korea for being fucking terrible. Do we really want to complain about them not doing more than us? Of course they don't. They're shit. That's like saying we clearly can relax our policy at killing people because look at Charles Manson.

(and by "they" I mean their government of course, not every single inhabitant of Saudi Arabia)

As for the "men first" argument... one, I don't know if that's what happens. Even if young men arrive maybe they're sons, not fathers. Two, the trip itself is dangerous so someone might think it more reasonable to undertake it himself, then help bring his relatives out through more legal channels once he's secured a position for himself. And three, women and children DO arrive so it's not like it's all of them. I don't see arbitrary moral judgement about some people as something that ought to influence policy towards everyone.

Offline EamonX

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4066 on: February 10, 2017, 11:19:24 AM »
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Saudi Arabia and Turkey are shitholes. Saudi Arabia especially shares very similar views of Islam with ISIS, and Turkey possibly helps ISIS, so why would people escaping from ISIS go there?
Doesn't Turkey hold nearly 3 million Syrian refugees though?

Every time Saudi Arabia is brought up my objection is: it's an awful place if you're not some wealthy oil baron, an absolute theocratic monarchy, a country straight out of the Middle Ages, second only to North Korea for being fucking terrible.
Actually, it's only an awful place if you're not a male Saudi. Natives in the kingdom have a relatively decent life. Poverty is very low in the native population. From speaking to Saudi students I met at university, they have all said that natives are pretty lazy because of the easy lifestyle, and have short working hours.

It's the foreigners who don't have it great. There's been a long-standing policy to prevent the vast majority of foreign nationals from getting naturalized. There is also the 'slavery' law where foreign workers must gain permission from their employer to obtain an exit visa to leave the country. Yes, a permission to leave.

But I wouldn't compare it to North Korea. North Korean natives are worlds apart from the level of lifestyle and privileges of Saudi natives. Hell, the entire Gulf nations have a much better living standard for natives than us in the West.

And even the comparison to 'middle ages' - a very eurocentric take on history. The middle ages were shitty for us, but actually a golden period for them. If anything, I'd compare Saudi's cultural laws and customs to pre-middle ages. However, even then, comparing them to an old ancient time is redundant because Saudi Arabia (and the Gulf) are pretty developed for third-world countries, especially when compared to other middle eastern countries including Israel. Basically, they are in the unique position of having a somewhat happy population in a relatively developed country despite being under the rule of a barbaric and totalitarian government. And the happiness factor isn't really due to state propaganda and brainwashing, but because their populations are actually living decent lives.
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Offline CL3

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4067 on: February 10, 2017, 11:42:10 AM »
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I for one see no need to maintain the idea of countries either. I don't think there's a need for the people who were born on the same arbitrarily divided chunk of land to favour each other over those born on a different arbitrary piece of land. I don't have a subjective sense of patriotism that drives me to believe my country is better than others and thus worthy of special treatment. Maybe when I was young this had been indoctrinated into me enough that I at least "liked" the UK, but especially the way things have gone socially and politically in recent years has washed away any such feelings. Even more so because people use these kinds of feelings to justify their xenophobia and discrimination half the time, and many people just accept that as if "patriotism" is some kind of great virtue that means you can get away with all kinds of things that would be considered unacceptable if you say you're doing it out of love for your country (this goes for wars and shit too). I think other countries are doing a better job right now, which is one of the reasons I preferred to stay in the EU - even if some things aren't great as it is, I don't trust our own leaders to not make things worse in place of the current arrangements. Leaving the EU doesn't mean the government is solely going to act in the interest of natives - instead we're likely stuck with being America's whore and a "bargain-basement tax haven" for companies threatening to move operations to the continent.


Online Gan_HOPE326

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4068 on: February 10, 2017, 12:09:39 PM »
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And even the comparison to 'middle ages' - a very eurocentric take on history. The middle ages were shitty for us, but actually a golden period for them.

I know, grew up reading the One Thousand and One Nights :face-lol. I meant "European Middle Ages", by comparison Muslim countries were fairly tolerant and open back then.

Offline Decimator

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4069 on: February 10, 2017, 12:19:14 PM »
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About this I don't personally dread much the disappearance of nations. People who lived in city-states in the Middle Ages in Italy may have dreaded the disappearance of their nations. They disappeared, and the world keeps spinning. It's all very relative. All I care is about HOW political entities are ruled, not how many of them there are or in which shape. Though I can see a case for multiple entities vs. one in terms of displaying the qualities of different viewpoints/ways of doing things, and definitely even in an ideal united world you'd need to delegate power at a local level for a lot of things.
Disappearance of nations sounds pretty Orwellian to me. A handful of supernations controlling everything and fighting each-other over resources? No thanks. I'm pretty sure they'd all turn into dictatorial regimes, because hey, you got no choice but to live in one of them. And how are they going to keep such vast amounts of people in check otherwise? Unfortunately I think that's the future we're heading for. The EU is trying to become a singular nation, with an army of its own and all. It's necessary to compete with the other supernations, but I don't like the future prospects of it. I'd much rather USA, Russia and China would have some sort of revolution and fracture into smaller nations, than the current small nations having to merge together for survival.

Quote
Saudi Arabia and Turkey are shitholes. Saudi Arabia especially shares very similar views of Islam with ISIS, and Turkey possibly helps ISIS, so why would people escaping from ISIS go there? Every time Saudi Arabia is brought up my objection is: it's an awful place if you're not some wealthy oil baron, an absolute theocratic monarchy, a country straight out of the Middle Ages, second only to North Korea for being fucking terrible. Do we really want to complain about them not doing more than us? Of course they don't. They're shit. That's like saying we clearly can relax our policy at killing people because look at Charles Manson.
At least they're not being shelled or genocided there, that should be enough for anyone legitimately fleeing a war zone. And they have much more in common with Saudis/Turkey than with any EU nation. Majority of the refugees still support Sharia law and death penalty for apostasy. They're also breeding faster than Europeans, so countries like Germany and France that have taken refugees by the millions are at a risk of becoming Muslim majority in a matter of generations. If that ever happens, they can get Sharia codified into the official law of the country.

Quote
As for the "men first" argument... one, I don't know if that's what happens. Even if young men arrive maybe they're sons, not fathers. Two, the trip itself is dangerous so someone might think it more reasonable to undertake it himself, then help bring his relatives out through more legal channels once he's secured a position for himself. And three, women and children DO arrive so it's not like it's all of them. I don't see arbitrary moral judgement about some people as something that ought to influence policy towards everyone.
It's the sons who should be fighting in the first place, they're in the prime fighting condition of their lives. Middle-aged fathers are placed in the reserves and only deployed when the going gets desperate. And the trip isn't dangerous, if you go through the legal channels instead of black market human traffickers...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 12:25:47 PM by Decimator »

Online Gan_HOPE326

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4070 on: February 10, 2017, 12:25:38 PM »
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Disappearance of nations sounds pretty Orwellian to me. A handful of supernations controlling everything and fighting each-other over resources? No thanks. I'm pretty sure they'd all turn into dictatorial regimes, because hey, you got no choice but to live in one of them. Also, how are they going to keep such vast amounts of people in check otherwise? And unfortunately I think that's the future we're heading for. The EU is trying to become a singular nation, with an army of its own and all. It's necessary to compete with the other supernations, but I don't like the future prospects of it. I'd much rather USA, Russia and China would have some sort of revolution and fracture into smaller nations, than the current small nations having to merge together for survival.

I don't see a net correlation between size and tyrannical rule. In the past there existed tiny countries that also were very tyrannical. Today's nations are huge by the standards of a lot of history, especially population-wise. Right now we already have a handful of super-nations fighting each other over resources. Maybe what we need to change is the "fighting each other over resources" part?

And how are they going to keep such vast amounts of people in check? I'm sure the Romans thought only violence could keep in check 50 million people. Yet here we have the democratically governed 300 million people USA. Again, don't see a clear correlation. You can have good systems and bad systems. Size doesn't necessarily imply either.

It's the sons who should be fighting in the first place, they're in the prime fighting condition of their lives. Middle-aged fathers are placed in the reserves and only deployed when the going gets desperate. And the trip isn't dangerous, if you go through the legal channels instead of black market human traffickers...

Fighting on whose side exactly? I remind you that Syria right now is in the crossfire of at least three armies, all fucking awful. Assad, the Islamist Rebels, and ISIS. Pick your poison. I know that without a decent shot at organising under a common banner I would consider running a pretty sensible option. The place is lost to the forces of reason and common sense anyway. It's turned into a hellhole of crazy people fighting each other.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 12:28:09 PM by Gan_HOPE326 »

Offline Dan

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4071 on: February 11, 2017, 04:28:01 PM »
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Pick your poison.
The YPG or the PKK I would pick anyday, and the YPJ if I qualified. Hardly a poison - they are among the most amazing people in the world today.

Online Gan_HOPE326

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4072 on: February 11, 2017, 05:07:51 PM »
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The YPG or the PKK I would pick anyday, and the YPJ if I qualified. Hardly a poison - they are among the most amazing people in the world today.

I knew about the Kurds defending their own land, and I agree with you on them, but that doesn't seem an option for all Syrians. Anyway none of these is a major force in play and for what I know they're only defending their own part of the country, which is hardly the kind of "take back Syria" action that the usual critics of refugees advocate. Either way, I simply meant I don't think we're in a position to judge people in mass for what they do. No one of us has ever been through war so it's pretty arrogant to deal judgement on others for not doing so, without knowing much about their situation either.

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4073 on: February 11, 2017, 08:28:32 PM »
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I knew about the Kurds defending their own land, and I agree with you on them, but that doesn't seem an option for all Syrians. Anyway none of these is a major force in play and for what I know they're only defending their own part of the country, which is hardly the kind of "take back Syria" action that the usual critics of refugees advocate. Either way, I simply meant I don't think we're in a position to judge people in mass for what they do. No one of us has ever been through war so it's pretty arrogant to deal judgement on others for not doing so, without knowing much about their situation either.
Well aside from the fact that the SDF (Syrian Democratic Forces) are 4km from Raqqa at the moment. I'd call that "Very much in play".
Cui bono?

Offline Dan

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4074 on: February 11, 2017, 09:47:45 PM »
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Not just defending their territories either:
"In March 2016, the PKK helped to launch the Peoples' United Revolutionary Movement with nine other Kurdish and Turkish revolutionary leftist, socialist and communist groups (including the TKP/ML, THKP-C, MKP, TKEP/Leninist, TİKB (tr), DKP, Devrimci Karargâh and MLKP) with the aim of overthrowing the Turkish government"

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4075 on: February 13, 2017, 04:46:26 PM »
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http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/schaffner_et_al_IDC_conference.pdf

Racist and sexist views are a better predictor of support for Trump than economic dissatisfaction, authoritarianism and populism.

Screenshot of part of the conclusion I'd like to quote but copy-pasting from this badly made PDF is a pain:

(click to show/hide)


Offline EamonX

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Offline Decimator

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4078 on: February 27, 2017, 12:30:18 AM »
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Enel, are you *still* riding the Trump train? You were supposed to snap out of it when he presented his administration, breaking records in wealth and crazy.

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Re: News worth our time
« Reply #4079 on: February 27, 2017, 12:48:43 AM »
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Just wait for Trump's address to a joint session of Congress.

We get to find out if all this crazy actually has a point (which would be bad) or not (which could be even worse).

Surely authority from someone who knows what they're doing is preferable over Trump's "whatever makes both sides happy" idea of a "solution".

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